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  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Clifford wrote: "The problem with SQL is that for the implementations to get reasonable performance, facts should be clustered into tables that represent composite facts wherever that's possible." That point about performance is frequently made.  I always want to remark that performance is a characteristic of the ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by hughdarwen on 05-22-2011
  • Re: Modeling based an existence chain

    Hi Ken, To pick up this thread again: OK: at the close of your last message (to date) on the "To null or not to null" thread, you finished with:    "My original interjection (http://www.ormfoundation.org/forums/t/839.aspx) was intended to bring out the point that it is good practice to design a data model in a way that ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Andy Carver on 05-22-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Clifford, Well, for a "non-expert" you have certainly made a very good articulation of the "null problem"! One small quibble is your use of the term "purist" as you used it in "relational purists". As I understand it, the term "purist" may be interpreted by many people to ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Ken Evans on 05-22-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Clifford    That's extremely well stated, and yes, you're getting down to at least one of the hubs of this whole issue. I agree that the awkwardness, which we have no choice to deal with, comes from the source that you indicate, and thus (I would add) not from any logical sloppiness or incompetence of the "nulls are ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Andy Carver on 05-22-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Well, I don't feel like an expert, but... The demand to exclude NULLs is for exactly the same reason that fact-based modelling demands elementary form. Whenever you express things in terms of predicates containing composite facts, you have problem when one of those facts is missing; so you need a different kind of expression. When elementary ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Anonymous on 05-21-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Hi Mr. Darwen,    It is a great privelege to have you joining in our conversation. Thank you for this. Let me say that I'd much rather sit and listen to you and Mr. Date lecture on this (or any other) topic for a week, than to have to offer up my relatively meager insights on topics that you more educated ones have treated at ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Andy Carver on 05-21-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Hi again, Andy, I wrote my previous response to your first contributuon in this thread, before I noticed your second.  Here I just want to respond further to this, from you: "The reason why nulls are GOOD is precisely that the bag functions (e.g. AVG) which the system provides, are TRAINED to ignore rows containing ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by hughdarwen on 05-21-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

     Hi Andy (and all), I have to say I intensely dislike the use of the term "religious zealotry" in contexts such as the present.  I appreciate your apology (to Ken) and apparent retraction--of the term's usual connotation if not the term itself.  Chris Date and I would respond indignantly, claiming that we have put ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by hughdarwen on 05-21-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

    Dear Ken, Thanks for promoting this discussion to its own thread. I think that will give it the space it needs to breathe. Also, though, I hope other people will feel free to join in the discussion.     I also like your proposal to take things in small chunks. This will allow us to get to the truth more easily. And btw, ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Andy Carver on 05-21-2011
  • Re: To Null or not to Null. That is the question!

     Hi Andy, Yes I agree with you about splitting the thread so here it is. I hope you like the title. I was tempted to use "Nulls pour les Nuls" but then I felt that the Shakespearian option would be more informative. Nulls are indeed a very important question which has hitherto not had the attention it deserves in this forum. So ...
    Posted to ORM Techniques (Forum) by Ken Evans on 05-21-2011
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